The Impact of 40 Years of VOCA: Conversations With the Field: Episode 2

MEREDITH TIBBETTS: Welcome to Justice Today, the official podcast of the Department of Justice's Office of Justice Programs, where we shine a light on cutting-edge research and practices and offer an in-depth look at what we're doing to meet the biggest public safety challenges of our time. Join us as we explore how funding, science, and technology help us achieve strong communities.

KRIS ROSE: Hello. My name is Kris Rose, and I'm the director of the Office for Victims of Crime in the Office of Justice Programs at the Department of Justice. I'm delighted to welcome you to our podcast series commemorating the 40th anniversary of the Victims of Crime Act, or VOCA. The first podcast in the series features three icons in the victim services field who have been actively serving victims and advocating for better victim-related policy since VOCA was first passed 40 years ago. And they are Anne Seymour, Steve Siegel, and Herman Mulholland. 

The second podcast uplifts the voices of some of our newer advocates who are just getting started in their careers. We'll be talking to Abrianna Morales, the program manager for the Victim Advocacy Corps, a project funded by OVC and administered by the National Organization for Victim Advocacy. She'll be joined by two Victim Advocacy Corps members, Grace Chungu and Thanh Nguyen. 

As we look back, the advances that have been made on behalf of crime victims over the past four decades, it's important to look ahead at how we see the next 40 years unfolding. What are the issues that continue to hinder victims and survivors from finding the justice that they seek? What more can we do to ensure that all of those who serve survivors understand how trauma impacts behavior during and after violent crime? Where have we, as a field, fallen short and need to redirect our efforts? What motivates us to keep doing this work knowing that progress takes time? 

As background, the victim rights movement was active before the 1980s, but it came to a critical juncture when nine people in 1982 were tasked by the president of the United States with examining the criminal justice response to crime victims and recommending how it could be improved. This had never been done before, and little did they know that the report that they produced, the final report of the President's Task Force on Victims of Crime, would create a seismic shift in our response to crime victims, and it would become the foundation of the Victims of Crime Act, the Crime Victims Fund, and my office: the Office for Victims of Crime. 

Since VOCA became law in 1984, more than $38 billion have been invested in local programs that provide mental health, housing, legal assistance, victim advocacy, crisis intervention, and other services to help victims and survivors heal and reclaim their lives. 

Recently, I took the time to reread portions of the 1982 report and I was struck by what I read. The task force was way ahead of its time. Though we consider it best practice now to include survivors when making recommendations about criminal justice policy or practice, it wasn't common back then, but the task force pioneers did it. They relied on the voices of survivors to give legitimacy, practicality, and the authenticity to their recommendations. The report even includes a section called “Victims of Crime in America” that provides quotes from survivors, excerpts from their task force testimony, and most interestingly, a bold first-person dramatization of what a victim endures. It represents a composite of a victim of crime in America. 

Lois Haight Herrington, the chair of the task force, wrote a compelling opening statement for the report, and in it, she says, “The important proposals contained here will not be clear unless you first confront the human reality of victimization. Few are willing to do so. Unless you are, however, you will not be able to understand.”

She understood the importance of placing the reader in the shoes of a survivor to understand the terror, the trauma, and the life-altering changes that occur when you or someone you love has been impacted by crime. Without that critical level setting, it's just too easy to ignore, overlook, or dismiss the reality of what a crime victim endures and the heavy burden that they carry. 

At OVC, it is our job to carry out many of the ideals, the solutions, and the promises that the task force members put forth in their report close to a half century ago. In order to effectively plan for the future for these next 40 years, since the passage of VOCA, it's important to understand the past and examine the lessons we've learned and the victories that we have won.

So let's meet our wonderful guests today and get started with our discussion. Would you please introduce yourselves? Tell us a little bit about you. Why don't we start with you, Abrianna?

ABRIANNA MORALES:  Yeah, sure. Well, I'm really glad to be here, first of all. My name is Abrianna Morales. I use pronouns she/her, and I am a sexual assault survivor, advocate, and activist, and I've been doing victim advocacy for the past 7 years or so, and I currently work for NOVA, or the National Organization for Victim Advocacy, as a leader of their Victim Advocacy Corps program, which kind of aims to elevate the next generation of youth leaders in victim services by providing college students with victim advocacy training, credentialing, mentorship at a 9-month paid field placement. 

KRISTINA ROSE: Great, we're so glad to have you. Thanh, would you like to go next?

THANH NGUYEN: Yeah, thank you. So as Abrianna said, I am one of the fellow cohorts that Abrianna leads in the Victim Advocacy Corps. I am currently an undergraduate senior at the University of New Mexico, and I study psychology with a minor in sociology and management. I am also very excited to be here.

KRISTINA ROSE:  Excellent. Thank you, Thanh. And Grace.

GRACE CHUNGU:  Yes, thank you, Kris. My name is Grace Chungu. My pronouns are she/her. I'm currently a second-year graduate student at Regis University. I'm doing my Masters in sustainable development practice and currently attached with the Blue Bench, an organization that is dedicated to supporting support of sexual violence survivors. So it's a very exciting opportunity and I'm also a Victim Advocacy Corps.

KRISTINA ROSE: We are thrilled to have the three of you with us today to commemorate the 40th anniversary of VOCA. And I've got some questions for you. We're very interested in your perspective. What does it mean to you that there is a federal law, VOCA, obviously, that established victim services and compensation and the funding for those services? I'm just wondering from your perspective what that means to you. And, Abrianna, let's start with you.

ABRIANNA MORALES: This is a really good question, and you know, when I think about VOCA and the establishment of victim services and compensation, I think a lot about my own experience as a survivor. I was sexually assaulted when I was 15 back in 2016, and so VOCA had already existed for a long period at that point. And I look back at all the victim advocates that I worked with, all of the services that were available to me, the ability that I had to even apply for victim compensation. And I feel really thankful and really appreciative of the fact that I had those things available to me and I recognize that so many survivors, so many victims in the past before the establishment of VOCA, didn't have access to that. So to me it represents a national dedication and commitment to support our country's most vulnerable, which include victims of crime, which include folks in marginalized communities that experience crime at disproportionate rates relative to others. I think that being a victim advocate, having the chance to kind of lead this Victim Advocacy Corps and help students like Grace and Thanh get into community agencies that are likely funded by VOCA is a really valuable indication of how many people throughout the country VOCA-funded programs really reach and how many victims have the ability to heal and be served as a result of advocates like Thanh and Grace doing such important work.

KRISTINA ROSE: I'm so glad that you were able to be helped by the services that were funded by VOCA, that you actually felt that and were able to use that also as an inspiration for the work that you continue to do. Thanh, I'm wondering what you're thinking.

THANH NGUYEN: For me, as an emerging victim advocate, I think what VOCA means to me is especially important in the field placement. So, my field placement is the New Mexico Asian Family Center, and we are a culturally informed place of care for victims. And I really see it in my everyday work where we get to not only support victims as they are going through the process of navigating the legal system, navigating language justice. But also, VOCA funding has supported us in providing our community with a space to just be present. And you know, healing is not just a one-stage phase, it's a long-term investment. And with VOCA, we are able to provide more than just direct victim care, but prolonged victim care.

KRISTINA ROSE: Thank you for that. And thank you for raising the Corps and your placement. I'm wondering, Abrianna, maybe this would be a good time for you to just say a little bit about what the core is and what the purpose is to be able to put Thanh's comments into context.

ABRIANNA MORALES: Yeah, absolutely. So, the Victim Advocacy Corps is a program started by NOVA, the National Organization for Victim Advocacy, developed with funding from OVC, the Office for Victims of Crime, that allows college students the opportunity to find a pathway into a career in victim services by receiving training, credentialing, mentorship, and then a 9-month paid field placement at a local victim service agency, which includes places like the New Mexico Asian Family Center, where Thanh is placed, or the Blue Bench, where Grace is working. We have 16 student fellows, including Grace and Thanh, hailing from communities across the country, doing the work that victim advocates around the United States do every day, and having the opportunity [to] directly serve victims in communities that need it most.

KRISTINA ROSE: And you all know how I feel about Victim Advocacy Corps. I mean, it has been a goal of mine to create an entity like this. So, the fact that we are seeing it for real and that I'm getting to have this conversation with the three of you is so exciting for us because I truly believe that having an advocacy corps that provides the right training and the foundation and the support for new advocates is really going to shape the future of victim advocacy, as well as really continue to define the impact of VOCA over time. So, Grace, let's hear from you about what VOCA means to you.

GRACE CHUNGU: Thank you. What VOCA means to me is that it validates victims' experiences and ensures that they get the necessary healing that they need. I'm at the Blue Bench right now and some of the services that are offered to clients is counseling, legal assistance, and emergency support. So, me seeing that at the grassroots, like seeing it happen, it also changes my life. And it also makes me want to be a better advocate. 

KRISTINA ROSE: I love the way you put that. Whenever I'm feeling inspired, it always makes me want to work harder. It makes me want to do my job better. So, I completely relate to that. 

VOCA has opened up so many amazing pathways for survivors to find the justice that they need, you know, the mechanisms in which they can be heard, and receiving the services that they so desperately need. But I know that we haven't done everything we can. So, I'm wondering, where do you think we can do a better job of serving victims? 

THANH NGUYEN: As I previously said, and as Grace has put, that VOCA has been not only for victims, but also for advocates, for support systems for victims.  And when I speak about support systems, I want to really highlight on, as I've mentioned with the Asian Family Center, lasting support systems. I think when we speak about supporting victims, getting justice for victims, we think about the legal process and, you know, incarceration, or whatever way that the victim seeks to get justice. But it doesn't end there, and there's no one-way path for a victim to go in to when they find a support system. So, it's really about navigating all the systems and then trying to find one that fits for you and one that is able to help a victim. 

When we speak about lasting support systems for victims, I feel that we can do a better job at

having a prolonged system and a culture in which we can uplift our victims continuously in whichever path they choose.

KRISTINA ROSE: It sounds like what you're saying, and I believe that there are a lot of people who feel the same way, is that the healing process is not linear. It is not over once, you know, the criminal justice system involvement ends. If there is criminal justice involvement, that we need to be able to commit to the survivors who seek help or support for as long as they need it. And we know that sometimes, right, they may need it over the course of their lifetime. And we have to be prepared to do that.

Thank you for that. Grace, where do you think we can be doing a better job of serving victims?

GRACE CHUNGU: Thank you, Kris. I think from what I've seen, many victims, like when they're calling through the Blue Bench, most of them don't even know, like, where to go, like what services they're entitled to. So, for me, I think that's a gap because that happens every time we get voice messages, phone calls. There's always a client asking to say, where can I get this help or that help? And also, there's also a sense of intimidation. I feel like, they feel like maybe it's wrong for them to seek these services. So, I think we need to reach a point where people just say, “I know where to go. This has happened to me, but it's not my fault, and I know where to go.” I think when we can get to that place, I think then we're doing a good thing.

KRISTINA ROSE: That ties so nicely to our Crime Victims' Rights Week theme for this year, which was, “How would you help?” And that everyone has a role to play. So maybe if more people knew about the resources that were available to people who have been harmed by crime that they wouldn't have to make so many phone calls to find out what resources are available to them. It would be much easier for them to get access. And, Abrianna, you have actually been working in this field for, you know, 7 years. That's amazing considering your age. What do you think we could do a better job with?

ABRIANNA MORALES: Yeah, I think that frankly, Thanh and Grace really kind of hit the nail on the head here. I guess next frontier victim services, or the thing that we can work on improving as a field, is fundamentally access. And that includes what Grace was talking about in terms of knowledge of services, awareness of services. Making sure that people from rural areas, marginalized communities are aware of what's available to them or even if things aren't available to them in their area. Making sure that we create pathways to service access. 

A couple of our student fellows are from a college called Aaniiih Nakoda College in rural Montana, and I had the pleasure of being able to visit Harlem, Montana, and the Fort Belknap Indian Reservation where the college is located. I got to see firsthand how there continue to be disparities in access to services that people need. At the time that I was visiting, the nearest place that someone could get a, you know, SANE exam or a rape kit done was, I believe, like an hour and a half away, at least. And that was a large barrier for folks that were experiencing sexual violence on the reservation in Harlem because they weren't able to get to a rape kit or get that taken care of should they need it. 

An additional part of that was that the ambulance could take them to the hospital to get that done, but there was no guarantee of a ride back home. Access means ensuring that people have the ability to get to services, to get the full benefit of those services and then continue to be supported beyond receiving them, right? But even moving beyond that, I think that, you know, access in terms of knowledge, but also in terms of representation. I think of the issue of language access that Thanh mentioned earlier, ensuring that resources and services are available in multiple languages, including for folks in the deaf and hard-of-hearing community, for folks that have different abilities.

The last thing I'll kind of comment on is something else Thanh said, which is embracing the different pathways that survivors need or want to take advantage of in terms of seeking justice and healing. For a lot of folks, particularly those that are undocumented or have reason to be apprehensive about the criminal justice system, you know, a pathway to justice that looks like, you know, going to court and doing all of that might not be as accessible to them. And so it's important for us to consider how we create pathways to services that are not entangled in criminal justice involvement. 

KRISTINA ROSE: Yeah, no, I think that you've gotten to some of the core issues, the same issues that we have been focusing on at OVC, and that is around options and access. Because when it really comes down to it, you know, you want to be able to have as many options as possible because people experience trauma, experienced victimization, in different ways. So, you can't have just one solution or one intervention for all survivors. And then if people don't know it's there, if they can't get to it, then what good is it to have it? You know, options and access. I truly believe that if we can improve those things, we will really, really make an impact. 

THANH NGUYEN: Kris, with your point and Abrianna’s point about providing access, whatever path they decide to take, we want to also be able to address the gaps between those paths. That, let's say if they decide to go with a local community service, that the local police department and the state police department are working together with that local service to provide them a comprehensive plan, a trauma-informed plan, a culturally informed plan as well.

KRISTINA ROSE: I think that your point about the multidisciplinary response is very, very important. but we also know that some survivors don't want anything to do with the justice system. You're right. Being able to have a path for those folks as well is something that we strive for. That no matter where a survivor decides to turn for help, they're going to be able to get it, whether it's through the criminal justice system, whether it's through community services, whether it's just getting support from within their family and friend groups, we want that to be able to happen too. 

What I perceive as one of the most important contributions that VOCA was able to make is that it had changed the culture around how we serve crime victims, how we perceive crime victims. And obviously we have not gotten there yet. It is an imperfect system. However, I would be very interested in hearing, as some of our brand-new advocates, those of you that are just kind of coming on the scene, how do you think that you can contribute to culture change and helping our society as a whole be able to put themselves in the shoes of survivors and help survivors get to finding their justice the way that they perceive it?

GRACE CHUNGU: So for me, I think the impact that VOCA has had on me is before I used to, I know it's embarrassing to say this, but I used to victim blame. Like when you see a victim, you'll be saying, maybe, you know, they did this, or maybe it was something that they were wearing, or something that they said. And that was my mindset until I got out of that thought process and also was able to see ways in which I myself was maybe abused verbally and I just took it like, no, this is normal, you know? So I think that normalization and victim blaming changed. My thought process changed. And it makes me want to speak out more to say we are all doing this. We may not be actively saying that to victims, but we are all contributing to that negativity. So it has had an impact on me as a person.

KRISTINA ROSE: That's very interesting and I really appreciate you sharing that because that's not an easy thing to say. And I think that we have all probably been at one time or another in a place where we didn't understand what it was like to stand in the shoes of a survivor. Do you find that you talk to other people your age when you find that maybe they are contributing to victim-blaming behavior or language? 

GRACE CHUNGU: Yes, I definitely am. Like, you know, you see that undertone all the time, like, be it on the media, be it amongst friends. And I'm able to speak up to say, I think you're blaming the victim here. And it actually doesn't really—it's so obvious to me now because I was so naive, I can say before. So, I'm able to speak up amongst my friends, you know, amongst my family, at work, even at school, like where it's prominent in colleges, universities. And so, I am embracing being an advocate, being able to speak up all the time.

KRISTINA ROSE: I think that it's those informal networks that really do lead to culture change. So, I appreciate that. What about you, Abrianna? Have you thought about how young people are contributing to this culture change?

ABRIANNA MORALES: I think about it all the time, frankly. I got into this work when I was 15. I look back at that now and I think, oh my God, I was so young when I started doing this. And I'm now able to look back and think critically about where I was at that time. And I'm able to see all the student fellows in the Victim Advocacy Corps, which range from, I think, 18 to their late 30s. So young people on all ends of this kind of spectrum of youth, right? And I think so much about the power of, I think, this upcoming generation and just young people generally in kind of directing the conversation about victimization and support in our society.  

You know, we had the Victim Advocacy Corps, like, leadership summit at NOVA's conference earlier this summer where they all gathered for the first time and had their training. And I was so impressed by all of the critical conversations that the student fellows, including you, Grace and Thanh, were engaging in about victim services, victimization, access, and how we can actually meaningfully support victims. And so, I think that young people have a really unique ability to recognize and critically engage with how our society has kind of made the culture around victimization. And not only are they willing to kind of think about it and call it out and recognize it, they're able to challenge it as Grace is doing, you know, with her friends, with people in her community. And, you know, as you said, Kris, informal networks are really the key to a culture shift. And I think that—you know, I think of social media and technology and how it feels that in some ways, we're more interconnected than ever. And I feel like that is really key for changing the conversation around, you know, victim advocacy, victim services, and how we can really meaningfully prevent and respond to violence in our society.

KRISTINA ROSE: That was really well said. We see sometimes technology as, you know, as a negative force when it comes to harassment, and abuse, and what we're learning about image-based abuse and things like that. Do you think that young people will be able to help us navigate those challenges as we go forward? And do you think we'll get to a place where we don't have to be so concerned with the negative aspects of technology? I just wonder how young people think about that.

ABRIANNA MORALES: I think that there are very, very valid concerns about image-based abuse and the way that technology is increasingly figuring in, you know, violent victimization or violence in our society. But I think that, you know, as long as we are willing to listen and engage with young people who really, like, I mean, I grew up with smartphones, with social media kind of coming on the scene for the first time. And I think that as long as we have conversations with young folks that are using these technologies and are able to really speak to, you know, how we can create positive community spaces online as opposed to violent or negative ones, that's a really important step forward, certainly. I don't know, I kind of want to hear from Thanh and Grace about this because I'm 23, so I'm not old, but I feel like I'm getting there. So maybe you all have something to say about this.

KRISTINA ROSE: Boy, wow. Yes, no, I would too. I'm very interested because this is such an area of concern for parents, for people working in the field. 

GRACE CHUNGU: For me, I think it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard because it's, you know, even with social media, you know, you should be able to see or see through which information is valid, important, and which one isn't. But in terms of it being a platform to share information, I think it's a big one because we're living in a digital age. Like, you know, that's the only way information can be spread. So, I feel like just maybe—it's a hard one, actually, for me. So maybe just striking a balance, but to what extent is everything accurate? I am not so sure, but I feel being able to release accurate information, being able to maybe just dig deep into where the information source is coming from. I think it would make it a better platform because I have that challenge right now to say how valid is this, how valid is that? But I think it's a great way to share information.

KRISTINA ROSE: Yeah, it's about striking that balance. I know, and it is hard because we have not figured it out as a society. Thanh, what are your thoughts?

THANH NGUYEN: Yeah, there is definitely that balance because for me, my first real outreach was witnessing the Me Too movement and the Black Lives Matter movement, which social media was instrumental in facilitating the voices of victims and survivors. And social media is a medium where it reaches people that have never been able to reach before and it is a space where people can speak about their own experiences and be heard that are beyond just mass media outlets that can sometimes be selective. But on Grace's point about that balance, I've noticed that fellow advocates online are really doing the moderation—the moderating of content online where, you know, something is posted as a joke and an advocate will go, well that's very offensive and that perpetuates negative stereotypes for victims. And I think that's where young people come in and they educate people from a place of ignorance or they call people out for being hateful towards a certain demographic or group.

KRISTINA ROSE: You know, that's so interesting that you say that, because I do believe that young people these days are much braver in terms of stepping forward and calling it out when they hear something that isn't right.  I think that that's another path, right, to that culture change we talked about. When things go well and you feel like you have contributed to a positive development or positive movement in someone's life toward healing, it can be so inspirational. It can be the best feeling in the world. What reason do we have to hope for the future of victim services and the treatment of crime victims? What is going to continue to give us that inspiration?

GRACE CHUNGU: Working at the Blue Bench, I think seeing what gives hope for the future is seeing healthcare, education, law enforcement, being able to work together to be able to help victims, because I've seen that at the Blue Bench, like, when a victim comes in, sometimes they have to maybe go through health assessments, maybe some education from therapists, and also maybe law enforcement if there was any, you know, sort of violence. So being able to see that collaboration keep going, I think for me that would be hope for the future. Like this is happening, this is working, because then the victims will not feel threatened. They'll know that they'll get the full package when they seek out help.

KRISTINA ROSE: Nicely said, thank you. Thanh, what are your thoughts about hope for future victim services?

THANH NGUYEN: Yeah, to build from Grace's point, I want to say that it's we're not done yet. And that brings me hope. For some people that can be a disdaining thing, but it's hopeful as we're still growing, and we are still a movement or a force to be reckoned with. I think that's something that brings people hope from all places in the world, is that being able to help somebody is extremely inspirational. And yeah, we're not done yet. It’s extremely inspirational that we can continue to bring services to these people and continue to keep working. That’s—I think that's the biggest source of hope for me.

KRISTINA ROSE: Thank you for that. Abrianna, would you like to round that out?

ABRIANNA MORALES: Yeah, certainly. When I first started telling my story as a survivor, what brought me so much hope initially was the fact that me sharing my story made it so that people in my community, at least, felt comfortable for the first time, often in their lives, to talk about what they had been through. And that, you know, being able to be part of that conversational shift initially, you know, around the Me Too movement around that time of, you know, having victimization and victim support be really part of the mainstream conversation was really inspiring and motivating for me. But I think as I am getting older, as I have spent more time in this work, I find that the Victim Advocacy Corps is something that I gain so much hope and inspiration from. Thanh and Grace are doing amazing work in their communities, and I get to talk to each of the 16 student fellows throughout the month, throughout the week even, and just getting to hear the opportunities that they have to make a difference in their communities around the country, getting to start conversations that weren't started before in places that often don't have access to victim services like folks in more urban areas might, is just—I don't know. It was one thing for me personally to have the experience of making an impact in my community. It's another thing to give that opportunity to other people. And I think that the Victim Advocacy Corps is a really wonderful demonstration of how far we've come as a field. And it makes me very excited to see how far we're going to go with this.

KRISTINA ROSE: Thank you for that. That leads me to this last question. I'm very curious to hear from each of you about who has influenced you the most on this path that has led you to victim services. And I fully realize that being part of the Victim Advocacy Corps doesn't mean that that is the path that you have chosen for your life's work. But something must have brought you to this period right here. So, Grace, can you talk to us a little bit about if there was an influence and who that was?

GRACE CHUNGU: Yes, so it was Shanese McGregor. She was the director of victim advocacy at Regis University. That was the first time I ever got a chance to advocate, and just seeing the passion she had, you know, the dedication when she was dealing with survivors, you know, active listening, it really, really made me feel like this is what I want to do. Maybe not really as a career path, but as me, becoming an advocate for life, being able to embrace it wherever I go. 

KRISTINA ROSE: I want to get a t-shirt that says, “Advocate for Life.” I love that. That's great. And Thanh, have you had someone that's influenced you?

THANH NGUYEN: Yeah, I think it's a collective embodiment of people. Everybody here, Grace, Abrianna, Kris, we got the chance to be in Washington together at the National Organization of Victim Advocacy 50th Conference. And how amazing it was for me to sit in the ballroom with 2,000 other people. And it was—it sent chills down my spine because often times I felt like it was just—it can become an isolating profession, and it can become an isolating work, and it was so moving to be able to see 2,000 people care enough to come and learn and celebrate one another. I think that was so impactful for me. It's something I would never forget to fully embrace. Seeing other advocates, other survivors celebrate their stories, and we can talk to one another in [informal] conversations as we mentioned, or formal conversations, and educate one another or celebrate one another, as I said. Yeah, that was beautiful for me.

KRISTINA ROSE: It was amazing to be in that room. Abrianna.

ABRIANNA MORALES: Yeah, this is a really good question. You know, I think that I'm really, really lucky to be in this field at this time because we were celebrating the 40th anniversary of VOCA and so many of the folks that really started this movement are still around to talk to and hear from and look up to. And there's this phrase I've heard before, I feel like the idea of, like, standing on the shoulders of giants, right? Where it's like, there are people who have done such groundbreaking, important work to establish these services and just these pathways to services even for people. And I don't know, it's hard to say, like, a particular person, but I think of, you know, Roberta Roper. We've talked about before. I think of Anne Seymour. I think of Marlene, who founded NOVA all those years ago. And the fact that I have had—I've had the ability to have conversations with them about the vision that they had for this field 40 years ago and the vision that folks like me, you know, Claire from NOVA currently, Grace, Thanh, all the other student fellows have for the future of this. And you, Kris. It has been such an honor to, I don't know, see the work that has been done, that you all have done to establish such an important and helpful field of victim advocacy. And it's amazing to know that I get to be part of this legacy of people that are going to move it forward.

KRISTINA ROSE: I love that answer. And you know, for those of us who have been in this field for a while, it's all of you, this new crop of hopeful, enthusiastic, energetic young people who are not afraid to buck the system sometimes, who aren't afraid to call others out. It's an inspiration for me and for many of us who have been in the field for a long time to know that you all are going to be carrying the torch forward. So I want to thank each of you for participating in this podcast as we think about victim services, think about how VOCA has transformed the field of victim services, and I truly believe there's a bright future.

THANH NGUYEN: Yeah, and thank you Kris, because as Abrianna was saying, you, Director Kris Rose, you are one of the many giants that we draw inspiration from.

GRACE CHUNGU: Like Thanh has mentioned, I think it's been an honor meeting you. I think you're very passionate and, Abrianna, Thanh, like the passion that you have also makes me want to be a better advocate. 

KRISTINA ROSE: Thank you for that. 

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